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In a series of live podcasts straight from the Cartus booth at the WERC GWS 2024 conference in Washington D.C., we chat with industry leaders to discuss the evolving landscape of global talent mobility. You’ll hear from our clients, suppliers, and future hosts of Mobility Matters on a large range of topics from sustainability practices within mobility services to employee relocation in 2025.

The conversations reflect a commitment to navigating the complexities of talent mobility, acting as the perfect bow tie to this year’s season.

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A WERC discussion: ready or not, here comes mobility 2030!

Cartus global talent mobility survey 2024

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If you enjoyed this episode of Mobility Matters, be sure to learn more at cartus.com/podcast or subscribe through your favorite podcast streaming platform.

podcast transcript

Andy: Hello everybody and welcome to the grand finale of Season 3 of Mobility Matters. The one and only Cartus podcast. I am your host at least once more, Andy Conduit-Turner, Director of Sustainable Growth Enablement here at Cartus, and today I’ve got a little something special lined up for you.

In the last few weeks, a lot of our friends from around the industry and around the world, all gathered together at WERC’s Global Workforce Symposium in Washington D.C. and what a wonderful and exciting time we had. Never ones to waste an opportunity to talk about the mobility matters on all of your mind, the rest of the Cartus team and I got together and used our opportunity at WERC to talk to as many people as we could.

Now, fair warning before we begin, a lot of our conversations here were recorded live in the busy environment of WERC, so less studio crispness and more outside broadcast energy on this one.

To kick things off, I will pass over to my good friend, Brenda Thoeny-Johnson, right in the heart of the action. So, sit back, grab yourself a drink, which is appropriate to the time of day, your lifestyle choices and need to operate heavy machinery. And let’s begin, shall we?

Brenda: I’m Brenda Thoeny-Johnson, a Director of Strategic Business Solutions with Cartus and I have two of my favorite ladies from the industry here. Introduce yourselves and tell us where you’re from.

Nikki: Hi, sure. I’m Nikki Thomas. I’m with Micron. I am our Global Mobility Program Manager based in Boise, ID.

Alice: And I am Alice Terry, also with Micron and I am a Senior Specialist of Global Mobility and I am based at our Manassas, VA site.

Brenda: Awesome. So, Alice, starting with you, what is your number one take away from this GWS event?

Alice: I think my number one take away is that the participants are really engaged. And I was a little surprised, but not so much surprised, that I appreciated the engagement and the active participation in the sessions: the questions, the wants and the desire to be involved and outside of us in the networking aspect and meeting new people, the learning. Because I do think it’s a good opportunity for us to learn from one another and I saw that a lot – that we were actually learning from one another and having engaging discussions and asking questions.

So, I think that a lot of the participants will say that they were able to engage and learn something during this conference.

Brenda: Great. Thank you. And for you, I want to know what are you looking forward to in the future of mobility? Like where do you see us heading, something that is really exciting to you?

Nikki: Yeah, there’s a couple of things that I’m really excited about. First, I’ll say I’ve been really excited about all of the talk of well-being within the industry and for our employees, especially on the social aspect of the community aspect. And then also I think in order for us to really move forward on stronger partnerships and collaborations between all of the different parties that touch every location. And so, I’m really excited for that. It feels like there’s a lot of excitement about that, and we need to kind of start making that change.

Brenda: The collaboration. Yup, I love it. Well, thank you so much for spending time with Cartus, ladies.

Nikki and Alice: Thank you!

Isaiah: Yeah, my name is Isaiah Shelton. I’m the Mobility Manager for a company called Sealed Air, and we’re based in Charlotte, NC.

Yolla: One of the sessions that I was actually a part of for Cartus was around what the mobility space will look like by 2030, right? What’s going to be needed, policies? What do you see changing? So, I would ask you, you know, based on what’s currently happening, what do you see changing in the next five years for mobility or what do you see that needs to change for mobility?

Isaiah: Yeah, so for me, because I have an immigration background, I would definitely love to see immigration reform and not just that, I would love to see it, but I think that there needs to be changes, especially the US inbound. You know, whenever I think about mobility and relocations, it starts with immigration, right? So, if you don’t have a visa, you don’t have an employee starting, you know, being hired at a company. And so, I think about the intricacies and the difficulty that it takes to get a visa and to facilitate that process, you know, for an employee and sometimes it can be stressful for the employer depending on the experience, right?

Yolla: Yeah.

Isaiah: So, not necessarily that immigration needs to be easier, but I think that it needs to be more efficient. Right? And it’s more of a seamless process. So, when I say that, you know, you have immigration attorneys that are involved, you have HR business partners and things like that that are involved. But then you also have the government, right? And so, the government facilitates, excuse me, a lot of that process. And I think that if the government can become more effective and efficient, it’ll make for a better experience overall for the employee, for the company, and for countries, right? And we’re speaking particularly about US inbound, but globally as well.

Yolla: Yeah, that’s so great actually that you talk about immigration because during our session that was like really the number one, immigration always seems front and center stage. And you know I’ve heard a couple of things. So, I’m going to ask, you know, there are countries like in the Middle East, for example, that have a more like rapid paced integration process. It’s more electronic based versus you know the way that the US is doing. Have you had experience with that and how does that compare to what you see here in the US?

Isaiah: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, not so much in the Middle East, but just, but I think globally, there are some countries that are improving and enhancing the way that they do immigration. Right? Because when you look at talent, you know, countries are really vying to get global talent to come in and to be contributing, you know, to their economy and making their countries better places. Right?

And so, when you think about that again, making that process seamless and effective for people to really be enticed to want to come and live in a country like that, it’s going to be important. Right? And I think about even here in America, the struggles that we face with immigration and how people, they have to pivot and go to other places, and you know, try to make it work. Right? And that’s talent that you’re missing out on. So, I think that a lot of countries will start to get on board and hopefully they’ll create some opportunity for permanent residency and long-term, you know, work permits for people to be able to travel and facilitate and ultimately be successful at work for companies.

Yolla: I so appreciate that because you mentioned talent as well and that’s really on the minds of a lot of you know, HR mobility contacts. Right? And especially the ones that you speak to.

What about employees that are here on a visa, right? In their minds are thinking, “Oh my gosh, what if something changes?” You know? You might not be able to keep them here in the US, right? They may need to return home. So, is that something that, you know, keeps you up at night?

Isaiah: Not necessarily. I mean, again, I think that it’s really going to be case specific. Right? I mean, there are opportunities to keep employees here beyond temporary visas depending on, you know, what the permanent residence process and things like that looks like for the employee but you have to plan for that and you have to forecast. Right? And so, it’s not something that you can just do overnight just because of the processes that you have to go through.

But again, it goes back to what I was saying earlier because some of these processes are very long. Right? So, if you’re an employee and you’re on a temporary visa and maybe your employer isn’t first in immigration, and they wait too long to start the process. You can end up having to leave the country, and that can become, you know, an issue. Right? Because now you’re losing an employee and it’s costing you, you know, abroad or to bring you back to the US. And so, it’s very critical that you stay compliant, and you maintain in your forecasting and planning for those visas so that it’s not difficult and people aren’t having to go through those experiences.

Yolla: Yeah.

Andy: And I’m here joined here at the Cartus booth by Michael Johnsen from Arpin International Group. We’ve grabbed you to talk about my favorite topic. We’re going to dive into where we’re going with ESG and our mobility services. No pressure. You don’t have to solve it all by yourself.

Michael: Excellent. Yeah. I didn’t know it was your favorite topic, but I am glad to hear that. Good, we’ll go for it.

Andy: But before we do that, talk to us in case people aren’t familiar. Again, I say this usually, if people are tuning in to a Cartus podcast—they don’t need to explain Cartus again to them, hopefully—but tell us a little bit about Arpin international. What are you doing?

Michael: Thanks for asking. Yeah, Arpin International Group is a households goods mover with an international footprint. So, we’re based, headquartered in the US, we’re a120-plus year-old company, fifth generation ownership and we’ve got offices and operations in London, Germany, UAE, India. And I just moved back from Asia, where I’ve been for 20 years and overseeing the Arpin operations in Shanghai where I lived for many years and recent, most recently Singapore for many years.

Andy: Wow, you’re obviously running a global operation, very recent experience with our friends in APAC there. But, how do you see the services change globally, is there really notable differences between regions that you observe?

Michael: I mean it’s a bit hard to say, it technically should be standardized, but frankly probably Asia has more of a high touch from a cultural nature. And also, you know expectations, I will say are a bit higher from the expat communities that we serve in in Asia. So, the packing standard is a bit higher frankly, but also the high touch of service, you know that we’re able to offer over there, is a bit more.

Andy: And then, segueing of course, another area where we see we can perform differently based on infrastructures and what’s available. Obviously, when we make an approach to ESG—not just the environmental which you hear me talking about a lot— but you know the social and the government side. How is that affecting your business day-to-day today?

Michael: Well, it’s becoming more and more of a topic definitely. And currently Asia is probably in 3rd place relative to let’s say Europe/Northern Europe then the US—followed by Asia kind of playing a little bit of catch up in terms of ESG—but particularly the E part, right, which is everybody mainly sees, right, and is typically the focus. That said multinationals in Asia do often, you know – whether they’re American or European companies – often they have the policies following through to their Asian counterparts and counterpart companies and those programs can be strong.

So, the social component, the DE&I component is more, you know, coming out in policies and things like that. So, there’s definitely more focus on the S part as well, you know. And the G, I mean, we’re talking about different countries and different governances and laws and things so…

Andy: Phenomenal amounts to keep track of, right, when you’re working across an international business, thinking like which of my business units are affected by which criteria that we need to make sure we’re reporting to accurately and participating in. And I think you mentioned it’s not only the environmental—I know we’re looking very heavily at the environmental reporting requirements that are coming in—but the social side as well.

Particularly when we’re working with a supply chain that might go several layers deep, I think the level of robust governance we need to be able to say not just that our office staff in our administrative part of the business are being treated fairly and are paid adequately for where they live and so on.

And you know, you might have the drivers and the crew working on the van that are in a destination agent – who are outside of your office who are, you know, working with you directly – having to have that level of governance must be a challenge, but I guess one that you need to make sure you do correctly.

Michael: Well. You know, I guess we’re building corporate culture and as you know, these policies become more understood they’ve kind of become lived throughout the supply and value chains themselves, like you said. So, I think that there’s less and less to worry about in the sense of compliance issues and those kinds of things.

Because things that might have happened even 10 years ago in certain countries,15 years ago in certain countries, aren’t even a consideration these days. But that said, you know, let’s just say for drivers and the packing teams, and you know, hopefully due to the social component again that, you know, they’re being considered a very important part of a team and that they’re being well cared for themselves and not looked at as they’re labor per se. Right?

Andy: Yeah, phenomenally important. On the environmental side, I know that when you’re working in logistical services that the spotlight will naturally come and fall on the, you know…

I think even with a very basic understanding of environment you see a truck; you see a plane and think there are emissions associated with this.

So, what’s your approach as an organization made to start to evaluate what’s practical for you to start doing? And then, where are you in the stage of thinking of what long-term planning maybe looks like?

Michael: Well, I mean – interestingly enough – you know, cardboard is a big aspect of our business. Right? Boxes, right? So, I’ll say in China, when we do a delivery—I always get a kick—but there’ll be three guys on tricycles who drive up and not really, but they’re fighting for the recycled material, and take that down, get paid for by the recycling company and make money for the day. Right?  So, recycling is a really important kind of focus, right? So, it brings money to these entrepreneurs, right, which is great.

Interestingly enough, the US—due to labor cost here for packers they’ve developed—many, many years ago, even before its time, ESG time —was kind of a thing: paper packaging. Right? So, when we have shipments come in from the US, it’s got paper packaging and cardboard, which is great. Less bubble wrap, less plastics, right? And even less tape.

So, a lot of the shipments that come in the US are almost, you know, significantly recyclable. Whereas often in Asia, there’s still more plastic packaging being used by foams and bubble wraps that when they go overseas to Europe or the US, for example, are less recyclable. So, there’s still work to be done and focus, you know, to be improved upon. As I said and I say this with respect, but Asia is probably still in 3rd place, but catching up quickly as everything in Asia happens really fast.

Andy: I was about to say the same thing, like the speed of development in a lot of our big economies in Asia, you know, China and of course India – with a very rapidly expanding economy there – like I do think you observe phenomenal speed.

And also, I think there’s a real hunger and competitiveness there not to go through the industrialization to follow, like, the exact same steps that happened in, you know, the US-Western Europe — where it maybe happened a different time—but actually to advance and be doing the most modern practices. And you know, why would you if things – which are economically and environmentally better – already exist, adopting those from the beginning rather than having to go to point A and then transition to point B, why not go straight to C?

Michael: Definitely, definitely. I mean, I think, yeah, leaps and bounds everything, really: you know, infrastructure, office building construction. Everything happens really quickly, much faster than it happens here. And that’s due to the governance, you know, they’re able just to make things faster with less red tape often and, you know, there’s no reason or expectation that, you know – in regards to ESG – that it wouldn’t be the same.

Andy: I think for us, even our Cartus team, our India office is one of them that when we did a an energy order across our organization, our Indian office – by nature of where they are and where they buy their energy – buy most of their energy from renewables already, which is a fantastic thing to see, a lot from Hydro.

Michael: I’m glad you mention that, actually. And you know, continue to give credit to development in Asian countries like China, like Singapore. You know, I’m traveling to China again, next week, and at least 50%, probably 75% of the cars on the road and in City like Shanghai are electric, 100% electric.

Andy: A huge amount of like electrification of transport happening in China now as well, and I’ve also seen they’re more than widely available there. Some of the work they’re doing to look at making those vehicles more accessible and take out that range anxiety that buyers of EV’s might get here, when you’re doing a long drive, “Am I going to be able to make it? Am I going to have to add time to do charging?”

It’s a natural part; I drive an EV myself. It’s a natural part of my route planning today, but you know, looking at universally acceptable batteries – which can be when you pull into a charging station – you take the battery that is out of your car and a new one is clipped in.

Michael: Have they had that in the UK already?

Andy: no, no, no, no, no. I mean this kind of is experimental technology where’s there’s a lot of patenting and everything, so this is definitely a future state but exciting to see the development happening in those markets, I think.

Michael: Yeah, definitely. There’s at least one Chinese car that has interchangeable battery and so you know, you go down to the dealership and get a new battery. Right? So that’s existing already.

You know, there’s things like that. Things you get looked at like you have two heads if used cash in China. Right? So, they’re already leaps and bounds ahead in many ways, often.

Andy: I mean similar in in Europe now as well. I always find it remarkable when I come to the to the US and people, like there is still more of a culture towards cash here. Whereas like now, it’s been several months that I’ve been in the UK since I’ve even had to type my pin number, because your phone uses your face ID and you just tap it so…

Michael: I didn’t realize that. But yeah, that’s interesting. Yeah, it’s ironic but interesting. A lot of the innovation, the technology might have been developed here a decade ago, but it’s not used here. Right?

Andy: It’s so interesting where we develop in all the ways, and I think one of the examples I really want to lean on, I think, particularly—and that we’re just speaking about it at a session—when we think about sustainability and looking at particularly environmental impacts of the work we do.

I think that the natural first fear or that reaction is, “oh my goodness, I’m going to have to stop doing everything I do today” or “I’m not allowed to do this.” Or for an organization like yours, like the hammer is coming towards them, right, “can you replace all of your trucks with electric vehicles tomorrow, please,” which of course would be financially ruinousness for you.

Michael: Only if Cartus tells us to, you know.

Andy: You heard it first here everybody.

Michael: I mean. That’s the interesting irony. A lot of the policies come from, you know, the multinationals come down to the RMC’s and then get pushed down to the supply chain, which is, you know, a natural progression. And I think, you know, makes a difference. Right?

Andy: I think this is all said. Like absolutely, I think the pressure which comes, and we can build that pyramid even higher. So, obviously the requirements we need to see from environmental improvements, because we will see a lot more of those disasters. But then, which drives government legislation, which drives corporate policy, which drives, their expectations of our place in the market as RMC’s, which then in turn, which all the logistical suppliers we work with.

I think for me, fundamentally the most important thing, and perhaps more than any of the other challenges we face when we approach ESG solutions, is that this has to be a multi-way conversation, a multi way conversation.  I think to bring it down is yeah, it gives pressures, it gives us a business reason.

Michael: It’s a healthy pressure, right?

Andy: Yeah, it is a healthy pressure. But then for us to actually be successful, we do need this to work in both ways. So, I’m happy to say this while we’re recording, I think when folks like yourself are innovating and making changes to the way you operate, or when you have options to make changes.

If you’re innovating a new method and saying, oh, we’d like to do it like this, we would like to make sure we never ship a half empty container, which might mean that you have to wait till there’s someone to join you, so it will take longer.

I think then it is incumbent upon the RMC’s that are working closely with your multinationals to say these are options, we can combine our efforts and all the wonderful work that’s going into data right now. To say if we were to do this, these are the impacts. This is financial impact. This is what we would estimate the environmental impact differential to be. And that data will be real talk, sketchy at first and then it improves and becomes more accurate as we get more real information.

But then making sure that we are advocating for the innovations that you’re all making available, so that we can then have them included in policies. Have people be comfortable with those changes and be able to ask those questions about a change in materials.

Andy: Of course, all things must come to an end, including season 3 of our podcast. But before we do that, I was very excited to sit down and discuss next season and Mobility Matters with our brand-new co-hosts, Kristi Lund, Director of Strategic Business Solutions, and Terri Bonfiglio, Director of Global Mobility and Consulting Solutions.

Let’s talk to them, shall we?

Andy: We’re coming to the end of Mobility Matters this new season, which as tradition, there were lots of things like Doctor Who’s, James Bonds. A third example: sometimes change hosts or who’s in there. And we’re doing it again, this time to both of you. Announcement. Applause. You’ve done it.

Congratulations.

Kristi: We’re very excited.

Terri: We are very excited.

Andy: I can’t wait to hand it over to you guys. I mean, we’ve had you on a couple of episodes.

Terri: Yup.

Andy: We’re going to talk about favorite episodes that we’ve had this year. I will tell you officially on the record you are allowed to choose the ones you’ve been on.

Highlights? Terri?

Terri: Yeah, I would say the first one I was on. We were looking at the Global Talent Mobility Survey that we did in 2024 and there were some interesting surprises. So, I had a colleague of mine join me in that conversation.

As you recall Lisa Johnson—she’s our director of DE&I—and we both gave our what surprised us and what we were looking forward to engaging on. And for me, I was surprised by the shift in the priorities, and we looked at the top three priorities where cost was typically #1. And in this survey, it told us that the employee experience, flexibility and optimizing the process was really important to our clients in today’s world.

And the other thing was, I was pleased to know that clients are looking at their policies. So, whether it’s from an inclusive lens, an ESG lens – they are very interested in making sure that they’re balancing that against their broader objectives in the organization.

And the other podcasts I did, if I recall correctly, was on one of the topics that I love, which is on cost savings. So, we did a 2-part white paper and then we talked through… The first white paper really focused on the policy design for the global moves and what clients need to be thinking about.

And then the second was on cost savings. So really give some tangible insights on things that clients could do to bring down costs while not impacting the employee experience. So those were mine, they were great.

Andy: Great episodes. I was there, I had them. Kristi, I’ve been on less of yours, but how about those?

Kristi: Yeah, I absolutely loved one of the episodes that we did this season where I got to sit down with two of our fantastic international assignment consultants, which I think is so important because they’re the heartbeat of our organization. Truly what they do is why we’re here. But we have very few opportunities to actually hear from them directly. So, it was really fun to sit down and hear why they do what they do. And it’s a really good listen. So, I would recommend rewinding back and listening to that, if you haven’t.

Andy: Yeah, please do go and binge the rest of the episodes. It really helps the algorithm, please.

Wonderful. Obviously now you have a whole new season that you’re planning out with the rest of the team. I will not ask you to spoil anything if there’s anything you’re particularly excited to be talking about; you are allowed to share. You’re allowed to maintain a bit of mystique and surprise if you’d like.

Kristi: Well, I won’t go through all of them, but we are planning of course some topics around the upcoming election here in the US and how that will impact the mobility space. And one of the ones that I’m most excited for is just our wackiest relo stories. It’s nice to take a break from all of the thought leadership and challenging topics and just have some fun with it, so that’ll be one to watch for.

Andy: I think that’s going to be a really great episode. I mean, we’ve been here at WERC, surrounded by people in the industry, and it’s one of these things when you record something like this, it doesn’t necessarily feel like you think you’re talking into a microphone, it goes away, and that number goes up somewhere, but it’s sometimes a little bit separate from engaging when people outside of your organization listen to it.

I have been delighted. My little heart swelled with some of the people that came over and said, “I listen to the podcast; we had a really good time listening to it.” And I think some of the nice feedback we’ve had is that they like the direction we’ve taken and being able to talk a bit more candidly. A little bit less very buttoned up in a corporate sense. We are a corporation, so we can talk like that, but actually having human conversations with people means that people are willing to listen to it while they are walking the dog or doing the dishes, which is – I maintain- podcasts are for.

So yeah, I’m so excited to have you on. I mean, I guess I could come with my begging cap if we could do an ESG episode, I would be delighted to come and do that for you.

Kristi: You’ve just volunteered yourself.

Terri: Exactly.

Andy: I’m still on everybody you’re not getting rid of me, yet.

Kristi: Yeah, big shoes to fill. I gotta work on my jokes and my podcast voice because you lead the charge on that for sure, Andy.

Andy: What are you talking about? This is how I talk all the time.

Kristi: Every day.

Andy: Wonderful. We will leave it there. We’ll take a little break for now. Who knows? If something very exciting happens in our last few sessions of ERC, maybe we’ll come for another wrap up if something truly earth-shattering happens.

But otherwise, thank you for listening to this season. I have had an absolute blast doing it, so thank you for having me, Cartus. Thank you for listening – everybody that does now and in the future.

I will see you all again soon. Thank you and goodbye.

Terri: Thank you, Andy.

Andy: And I think that will be about that for Season 3 of Mobility Matters.

Before I say goodbye, I want to take a quick moment to reflect on some of the incredible conversations we’ve had. It has truly been a joy to sit down with such wonderful people, some great experts in their fields, and talk about some of today’s hottest mobility topics. Our heartfelt thanks from myself and all the rest of the team, to all our listeners, all of our fabulous guests, and everyone who’s interacted with us across any type of platform with their questions, their comments, their feedback – it has been all truly wonderful.

I am very excited to be passing over the reins for next season to the wonderful Kristi and Terri. I know their fresh perspectives, their infectious energy and their relentless positivity and expertise will lead to some wonderful, exciting discussions on the next season of Mobility Matters.

For now, thank you so much and goodbye.

Andy: Well, that’s all we have for today on Mobility Matters. If you enjoyed this episode and want more insights, be sure to subscribe on your favorite podcast platform. But hey, listen, this podcast is all about you. The members of the Global Talent Management community and the topics you care most about. So, if there’s a topic, you’d like to hear us cover in a future episode either as a short response or a full panel discussion, we would love to hear from you.

Please e-mail us at cartusolutions@cartus.com. We thrive on a good challenge, so please let us know what mobility matters are keeping you up at night. Until then, thanks for listening and we’ll see you next time.

Visit cartus.com/podcast for more episodes of Mobility Matters.

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